The rise and fall of the Frankish Empire
Once upon a time, if you are looking for a large, comfortable, reasonably equipped, often quirky, car usually reasonably priced, French was the default option.
Since then, the UK and Ireland at least, the choice of major French cars are Citroën decline has ax C6, and rumors abound that the C5 will not be a replacement of the DS5 crossover being the successor defacto Peugeot merged its 60 x 40 x lines in the 508, and Renault won t sell more door sedan that the Megane Fluence.
Since the early days of automobile construction, the French brands were known for their large luxury car Citroen, prewar production is concentrated on the Traction Avant subsequent variants of this included the suspension hydropneumatic on rear wheels, which would applied to all four of the DS.
The DS, needless to say, is a French automotive icon elegant without effort, it would look like a spaceship at launch in 1955. It is the kind of car that, when television programs in the US want to portray a Parisian scene, they find a European style coffee on a film set, Plonk a DS in front of it, and show the Eiffel Tower in the background such was the purity of the design, the car lasted 20 years with minor facelifts, although by the 70s, he was looking a little dated.
The CX was a modern version of the 70 car steering inspired BMC 1800 design Paninfarina Ultimately, the CX was launched during the fuel crisis of the 70s, the development almost Citroën bankruptcy and Peugeot has taken its sister company for better or worse, depending on whether you ask the passionate XM was the successor of the CX, a return to the fundamental values of Citroën, with just enough quirkiness to maintain basic hardcore fans, fearing a watered-down proposal, happy.
Peugeot was known as the French Mercedes-Benz in the 70 504 and 505 were compared to the W123 in terms of robustness, the latter being often used as a bush taxi in Africa.
Renault, after the war, focused on small cars In the 60s, he tied up with Nash and Rambler Classic sold as is luxury car, but not for RHD UK These are the initial shoots of tie -up AMC later, they had a hit with the 20 30 range, which led to the 25, a Robert Opron designed steering hatchback with a wraparound rear window giving form notchback himself later lent the frame 25 to the Eagle Premier, from which the Chrysler LH platform was derived, and it could be suggested that the Chrysler 300 Lancia Thema 2 are successors 25.
In the late 80s, the CX, 25 and 505 were getting long in the tooth XM, as futuristic as the design and launched late 80s, age very quickly, especially when in this s life people of Ka and Focus moved the design front the car in the 21st century A plan is underway for this facelift, with C5 facelift style beady headlights Xsara Fortunately, it never saw production, but the interested can see the result at the Conservatory.
The 25 was replaced by the Safrane, many felt looked too close to the Laguna Similarly, Peugeot launched the 605, which could be mistaken at first glance for a 405 Most major manufacturers have abandoned the segment E altogether, leaving this kind of thing to the french the Germans pushed on with the C6, 607 and Vel Satis choice Quirky, comfortable buses.
Richard Kilpatrick AROnline detailed misfortunes C6 It wasn t just the car, but the dealers who were by entities now companies used to service the lower end of the range of buyers were frightened by what they saw the suspension as too complex, on models of the second generation C5 wasn t equipped If rumors are to be believed, the C5 will not be replaced initial talks with GM about basing the model of the next generation on the next generation Insignia platform fell through, wish PSA to promote Citroën both as a mark of budget and the DS brand as a premium brand, leaving the DS5 a crossover style car with hard suspension, as the great car offers .
The 607 was a bit of a mishmash, it looked like an elongated 307 He drives quite well, and while it would not be confused with 406 or 407, sales were slow The effective replacement was 508, which also replaced the 407.
Renault UK has tried to sell the Vel Satis pretty successful buyers weren t sure what to do with the large sub-MPV car living seems They have now left the E and now the D segment here, after removing the third generation without interest Laguna interestingly, it offers an E-segment fair in France Latitude, which is a Renault-badged Samsung new talks with Mercedes-Benz on the creation of a sub-luxury brand Initial Paris, with a Mercedes sedan based folding name is now a specification Renault Clio, through it is attached with Nissan can push buyers to Infiniti models to fill this gap.
The traditional large French car is now represented by the DS5 and 508 other manufacturers pruned their saloons segment D, although some success Peugeot sales fleets The DS5 is the future of this market cars crossover inspired away three -box traditional fastback low stylish saloons and hatches Renault is rumored to be looking Nissan's success with the replacement Primera Qashqai.
The brands and sub-brands are realign too Renault must now sell small basic car as Dacias, leaving the main brand to move PSA upscale wishes go upmarket Peugeot Citroen as the budget of the badge, but also DS sub-brand as a premium brand future DS models are likely to follow the example of DS5.
What a big car comfortable if these models attempt to imitate the success of German sales by compromising ride comfort to concentrate on handling lapping the Nurburgring It was a complaint last Laguna and the DS5 is a manufacturer well, which always focuses on the Jaguar comfort.
The new XJ has been compared to the SD1, but I see some CX C6 about 508 also was accused of aping the Jag XF use PSA HDi engines, found in Citroens and Peugeots, you want a big car with French traditional qualities UK Buy.
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The 508 is nothing like an XF more like a 2013 Cortina The DS5 is a special design, with lots of added bits as the front windows of the doors at least it avoids the heavy pillars that are these days too common that strong back in the hat srongly recall the original DS ID 604 is a classic design perhaps the most beautiful square box ever.
Unfortunately too complicated electronics, poor quality and massive repair bills are what made for big French cars at the end I could imagine a Vel Satis to a value much less of a Rover city is now ready to go near one because of the huge operating costs, however, I'd sooner look back at a time when the Citroën CX provided a much more satisfying and cheaper alternative to a Mercedes 200 It was really a car that had look chic, radical and costs while simultaneously Yes there was rust problems and Jaguar weren t be immune in the early eighties and the quality was not quite Germanic t, you can live with that, but what you got in return was a fantastic looking car with a brilliant ride quality, excellent performance, lots of space and a dashboard like a ship spati al You know, I feel as if I want one.
As I said, this is an epic blog, pat yourself on the second return, I absolutely loved the 505, the 504 was a bit of a legend too, and the 605 was a pretty waftobarge The CX was really unreal now too sad if aint done in Germany, it doesn t matter, and really TBH, quality on is not 100 either.
The 508 is about as inspiring as a cardboard box with some ropey style details and have no presence on the road.
I have two or three questions to throw into the pot.
1 Why are small saloons c segment only involving developing countries, but if they are German, they call almost anywhere in the world.
2 If the big non-premium lounge is now dead cx 605 Safrane Omega xm Scorpio etc. why the Skoda Superb is quite a good seller but it is neither German nor a badge premium.
I've always had a thing for Citroen, my parents had a GS1220 for years and I had a later ID19, then DSuper 20 I almost bought a 2400CX but decided I had enough trouble, it will say then another good thing if it's a good thing about Citroën is that they make British cars of the 70s seem reliable, there are two C6 s New Plymouth where I live and he is very enthusiastic Citroën dealer here no we have not many wacky dealers here in New Plymouth Toyota Hyundai Kia Mitzi Suzuki VW Ford GM main stream ones in other words not JLR Merc BMW etc. The C6 is a great looking car alex's absolutely beautiful.
I guess car designs fall very into two categories decided by the marketing men and bean counters before they ask the design studio to find something Do we think out of the box to do something Renault 16 Citroën DS radical, CX, or just do something that will sell and won t stretch our thinking in any way Ford Granada, almost all Peugeots, older Nissans, etc. in response to the question of why the biggest Skodas sale, we will I have nothing to offer but it seems fashionable to buy one right now, despite the fact that all major Skodas look very 80's it there is a smaller Roomster called or something that was clearly the design of a kind not wired bless im right and the little thing Fabian I borrowed a Sunday was so bland the only thing that kept me awake was inside low-rent I expected bits to fall, they didn t if I were so happy to return to my Bini tonight, I had to borrow the Skoda cos I needed to transport 3 grandchil dren in the back and BMW tell me I can not update my Cooper Clubman of four seats to five seats in any Bless price as well.
6 Why can not we go back it would be a brave manufacturer that tried to buck the market and stop building cars that people really wanted to buy two Rover and Jaguar have tried continually go back and look how that Rover revealed death Jaguar and buried and now only beginning to emerge from intensive care.
The Skoda Superb probably sells well for its value and that it is not a large living room is a large tailgate with an additional opening as the BMW 5 GT.
The problem now is God, I sound old people who buy larger cars want.
1 A German car, so everyone made a big car is Sither German, or that the car is like a German There's nothing wrong with any of them, it's just that they're all the same yes, even very Germanic Jaguars.
These major French cars were off the pace throughout, frankly, but the loss of Saab and Rover, the world is a much poorer place without taking their other about what a great car should be.
The Citroen DS was simply the greatest car ever built.
It is not only the disappearance of the great French cars I cry, the great Italians were great as the 164 Mercedes as far from their core values, quality plummeted with the W210 E-Class, and they eventually got relatively cheaper and sportier BMW also dismissed sporting sedans very compromised with marginal space back seat 80s.
Not sure Jags s today are really the successors of the old French car, or even old Jags They aren t all that cheap Germans, and they aren t much lower quality, it seems that every manufacturer converges to a sports cod, well built middle Bring enough real choice I say, then I can choose between a Citroen wafty or BMW just wish it was on the right path not the way.
With French, it does not allow the larger saloons Italy Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Fiat, Japan Mitsubishi, Mazda, etc and Britain in Europe Ford, Vauxhall Opel Saab Talbot either ended up having a anonymous crank style ugly, inappropriate engines or another crossroads soulless which is sometimes hit with the ugly stick.
Then there are the car manufacturers with a lot of emotional sporting pedigree that happened in a moment of madness seriously believe they can somehow take the fight to their rivals direction via premium FWD despite rivals BMW Jaguar Maserati Mercedes remains largely RWD or gradually lost its identity on the year thanks to a badge-engineering, for example Lancia being merged with Chrysler.
If car manufacturers are so obsessed with crossovers, they should at least have a good overview 1993 Subaru Sagres and latest Porsche Panamera Sport Turismo concept on how to make a stylish crossover properly style that blurs the lines between a sedan and a station wagon athletic.
The decline of the great French car has much to do with changing attitudes in France than anything the French culture has changed dramatically over the past 50 years, even their wine thirst tumbled He is the Citroens I miss their Bonkers style, loaded with advanced technology and an air of relaxation lack of any other major car currently in production.
I really liked because it was the C6 DS and CX probably led the way in comfort and technology at the time Thier 508 is a shame and Peugeot are much more capable than this car and most Thier range, I hope the small yet spacious 208 turns the tide in some way, the french should stop trying to make cars as not bright Germanic looking C5 and start finding the flair, like the superb SM and XM .
Recalling the late 70s when my first experience of a major French car was a manual 604 which was really nothing for so and so few were seen on the wrong Nothing with him because he looked good and rode well with chair seats, I think people then as now preferred a BMW or Jaguar thing ssemed safer and easier to repair and had a value when you come to sell it went the same as the 80 end Renault 25 both in the form of engine 4 and 6 cylinders and also the 90 605 which looked like a larger scale 405 and the Safrane and XM, the two cars more engineering and frightning for most mechanics measurement subsequent offers like 607 and C6 seem to be in the same vein nice to drive, but the horrible repair bills and the ball depreciation lead.
The rotted long ago Take the test parking Find a picture of a car in 1965, one for 1985 and examine the scene today the 80 pictures will be similar to day, except that everything looked like a Golf MK 1 or a Talbot Solara in fact and as a man of vintage car after I shoot myself in the foot here just like a Ford model Y in the 30s, even my nine 34 Wolseley broke little new ground stylistically the 60s were the greatest period of individuality display Edwardian not Morris never looked like a Vauxhall, Rover not like a Ford and Hillman never looked like a G. We should never say never, but it is difficult to imagine such individual thought never return to the industry it was odd balls course the Fiat Multipla and Chrysler PT to name two If you return to a dark parking lot late at night and can not remember exactly where you left the car, there are only two vehicles that are easy to find RangeRover Disco or Bini.
21 I think your right DS He was undoubtedly the greatest single leap forward in car design of all Lancias time the two postwar before and immediately come in second, but their consistency in the field direction puts in another category.
40, you forgot the Datsun Joke, that is sooooo easy to spot, and I think this must have really come Renner not Datsun You are right though, the Eurobox look, I feel was launched by Ford with the Sierra now most cars look almost identical on It does not help when people VAG just nailed another badge on the front so you have identical VW seat Skodas.
Not mentioned in the great French class, but it was made in France, the Talbot sales OK were weak, he looked like a Solara enlargement and had a terrible inside, but the Peugeot based V6 was both no old Simca engines smooth and powerful these, the interior space is huge, he rode well and was excellent value.
40 See the changes in color parking lots 1960 pastels and two combinations of sound colors 1980 car park not as brilliant or gungy 1970 and with many metallic coming in now dull car park dull matte black , gray, silver, graphite, with the strange white Where has gone the neutral color and 43 I always thought a wagon version of the Tagora was a big success French used to make these major areas really well it would have looked like Volvo 740 a French field before there was such a thing as a Volvo 740.
Parking test recently in the south of France where the car parks are much more colorful Noticed this air IAT Perpignan airport and shortly after was delighted to pass a Citroën SM, Peugeot 604 and Chrysler 180 on the way to collect the rental car were all in good, used regularly, the state has been a great succesful French car, even on the British market for Renault Espace Despite the traditionally irritating and dissapointing Renault niggling price burlesque pieces easy difficult and expensive maintenance made without reason, greedy service centers, the amortization of the space was a huge success Buy an old Matra ten years built one now for nothing, and one for spare parts No rust, never with a hot galvanized shell in composite panels space, the best luxury.
Me looking for another green Avantime, Java please.
Thank you for this article, it is difficult to imagine that in the late 30's and even in the 50s, French cars were known for their quality and refinement, I think the problems occurred in the 80's building quality was very poor and reliability could be quite hectic.
Furthermore, Renault sold R4 and R25 and Safrane Twingo s and at the same time while the cheapest was a classic Mercedes C-Class The brand image is as important as inner qualities of the car look at Audi s the picture is enough to sell what remains a more expensive Skoda with a body still a little different engines and components are shared buy a car for the image, social status.
French carmakers have tried to take different ways to try other alternatives to conventional boxes but they didn t meet the expectations of customers succeeded Only Jaguar XJ with its incredible search range, but it was a Jaguar Although ' they went through problems, you bought a Jaguar, not a Jaguar with Ford components that are occupied, except for class X.
We must see that the DS will become, even for Paris which is likely to be sold Initial Maybe people will forget the C4 or 308 bases.
I have a type of X X-Class And I can asure you that there are more VW parts in a Bentley and Hardware Ford in an X-type Shares X low 18 of it's parts with most Ford much of the Mondeo.
It is strange that journalists critisezed it is for it's front wheel drive when simultaneously writing that Ford has the best car driving is class with the Mondeo, Ford How best not be good enough for a Jaaag .
BTW, it is the S-Type which more Ford or Lincoln LS components while actualy the type X, and no one is even complained about it.
journalists all don t like FWD I suppose even seen a horse pushing a cart instead of shooting so how can it be.
86 The BX 16RS Estate was one of the best of my some 80 cars so I need now with all these wretched potholes that did in four wheels and Alfa threaten one of my Bini Clubman In three years of ownership all I ever do live in 3 new areas and replace accelerator amplifier or something like that 87 Frua a guy Certainly not forgotten the magazine Car loved.
Thank you for your comments Some good points that French manufacturers have always had a 2 efforts shutters, with the likes of 4 Countering 20 30 and DS sold alongside the 2CV, I guessed that maybe it was part of the French way Liberty, equality, fraternity the Janitor and the CEO can both purchase vehicles from the same manufacturer when my friend Citroen collection was in France to undertake work, he told me that when he turned in an XM people were surprised to see that it wasn t the boss of Peugeot was probably the odd in this regard before the 104,204 was probably more of a small family car Following the takeover Chrysler Simca they really in small cars while the Germans had traditionally 3 sizes of the same living room, and only now are breaking into the small car market as trendy city types looking badge in a small package easy to park.
I am looking forward to the DS brand, but it seems like a small range of high end sedans in premium crossovers like the DS5 The DS9 looks nice, but it is likely to be a one-China model.
tie with Renault Merc Merc see Citan was supposed to announce the launch of the luxury car brand Initial Paris, but from what I read no agreement was reached, the name will be used as a trim level on Clios, Infiniti should be pushed as the key brand Renault-Nissan, with Dacia at the other end.
The X-type argument always crack me up The automotive media are fine with the Audis before pulling shares much componentry and platforms VWS and Skodas, but when Ford try and share the platform was also suggested Antigoon lower than 18, they go on about Jag Mundano LOL similar situations Saab yes, they're based on GM platforms.
My Alfa was the same, low-profile tires and sport suspension on the GTV meant it was always for tires and Xantia bushes just shrugged and absorbed potholes Some of the roads in the country village where I live now are a disgrace, and worsened after the recent snow storm and thawing.
Should have used past Jag Ford and GM Saab.
I sat in a DS5 explored this week is a funny thing.
About 4 to 5 m long, it no longer na my idea of BIG, but it certainly has an idea of unsightly when wandering around a in a showroom windows tinted inevitable EIER disguise massively heavy pillars at the back and from the driver seat forward visibility is atrocious.
Externally the design is just someone fussy and confusing, as had an idea for a shape, then let everyone a go with it vents, slashes, redundant details some aerodynamic neat touches but little in the style of talks on engineering.
Unfortunately, the internal borders on beautiful for a scifi geek console roof, glass roof, screens, buttons, slim console is very attractive, if only it was below a super-slim 1960 pillared. Glasshouse
And he's got a four-cylinder engine and is 30K with a few options it does not feel as a substitute for a C6 fact, I want to try one, but my feeling is that it would be unbearable on the road, simply because the position of the driver and limited visibility.
The hybrid option 4WD is interesting, however, I am convinced that this luxury more than a plastic high specification Chinese iPad clone-leading technology.
Yet it is more logical than the DS4, which has a design language mishmash cap almost double hull like semi-cut with non-opening rear windows, the weakest of a panoramic windscreen efforts I have yet to see or DS3 Cabriolet can and just a nice top Webasto and keep the tailgate.
Thank you for your ideas, having experienced firsthand.
I think outside lacks the elegance of the C6 CX XM DS or even the BX GS Xantia, more like a crossover version of the C4 Picasso.
The interior seems intriguing trays, overhead and loves Haven t met nasturtium in a car from the MK1 Vauxhall Combo.
Do you get driving reports I read said it goes pretty hard a cardinal sin for what should be a Citroën flagship.
The DS4 seems they're chasing the market Juke With the success of the Qashqai people, it is understandable that manufacturers are trying to get a slice of that pie.
I considered asking for a test drive, but after looking, I knew I would never, ever wanted to drive it's not like the Evoque, which has a drop dashboard and simple pillars are felt spacious and airy Large wheels look like they add to the poor ride quality.
The Vauxhall Signum was nasturtium, and you know that the DS5 feels like Signum Mutton dressed in premium French lamb Signum, lanky as he was, was a fundamental honesty and purpose who really feel lacking in the qualities of the materials of DS5 exhibition Living with may be different.
I would like the idea of the hybrid DS5, there were more intelligent in the body slimmer pillars, smart seats, informed use of space, but it feels more like a Big Insignia, safe, hidden Gross behind a lot of bulk coating adding I Don t remember the last time I sat in a C4 Picasso, but I seem to recall the feeling thinner in the front, more airy.
If the above is the actual view from inside a DS5 I think I know why I've never seen one on the road, it looks worse than drunk driving with THAN post blocking C4 Picasso view was actually very nice on the bar in all black, quite airy compared to most cars today.
My sleeve blocks part of the window next to the driver, but the pillars are really like that too Scuttle height is high, so you really have no chance to see the bonnet and wings He will need parking sensors before.
I saw one in a garden DS5 car park last weekend he was sitting between an SUV and a car at the same time you can physically and height 3 have used as steps.
Interior view of Richard made it look like this dashboard Cab-before MPVs have, with additional windows A pillar with huge blind spots If anything, it enhances the premium look C4 Picasso.
Maybe I'm looking thing SUVs wrong way are the spiritual successors to the great old saloons and hatches fastback Maybe I'm stuck with a car mindset dad 80s Certainly the recent storm spring snow, I contemplated a cheap Isuzu Trooper with potholes resulting comtemplated I Xantia a cheap Perhaps the new car crossover class is the best of both worlds and I was too ignorant intolerant to notice.
I can not get beyond the style that most of these crossover SUVs are metal boxes slabbed I followed yesterday 3008 and he was following an old style bus Peugeots had the old equivalent of this car perhaps it was a 505, 305 or 405 real estate.
Beautiful Although I get the sneaking suspicion that it should pay Alfa Romeo grille Although if part of the problem of large French and Italian cars is depreciation, and they are all on the high-end front with the XF as competitor, the midsize Jag holds its value well too recent browsing through the ads showed.
While Louis Vuitton bags, Moet Chandon, Hermes and Louboutin heels scarves continue accumulating stratospheric sales and billions churn, keeping the French economy afloat in the process, in the world of automotive French luxury has disappeared while the Renault Vel Satis world Certainly if Victoria Beckham can design the interior of a range Rover Evoque, the French should be able to do wonders bonus points for Citroën's DS range, but please, someone already bring Panhard.
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